August 3, 2020

Dr. Gwen:         Hi, I'm Dr. Gwen. I'm a clinical psychologist who's been empowering disabled individuals, their families, and the systems that support them for over 20 years. If you haven't already, please consider subscribing to my channel where I curate tools, share mindsets, and promote habits to help neurodiverse individuals thrive. Also, hit that notification bell so that you don't miss a thing. In this video, I interview Danielle Christy of Inclusively Minded. Danielle is a licensed educational psychologist with over 15 years of experience in the public and non-public school settings. We do a deep dive into what inclusion is and the mindsets that promote inclusion in any setting. We also dip our toes into Danielle's work with anxious kiddos and how she uses cognitive behavioral therapy to free them of thinking traps. Danielle is all about strengths, choices, and growth. Please enjoy this interview with Danielle. Hi, Danielle. Welcome. How are you?

Danielle:           I'm good. Hello, thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.

Dr. Gwen:         Oh my gosh. Since you and I touched base, like even a couple weeks ago about this interview, I've been thinking so much about you and inclusion. And so, I can't wait for us to dive into what it means.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         But, maybe before we do that, maybe you can tell us about yourself.

Danielle:           Yeah, yeah. I am, first, a mom and I have two beautiful kids. I have a daughter that's nine-- no, 10. She just turned 10. My son is six and a half and he has fragile X and autism and is the joy of our lives. And so, that's my first and most important job. But, I also am a licensed educational psychologist. I just started a private practice a little over a year ago. Before that, I worked in public school settings for about 15 years, did everything from nonpublic schools to self-contained programs. And then, I finally landed at a charter school here in Sacramento and got to help them develop a full inclusion program. And so, kind of just fell into this profession. I, in undergrad, majored in psychology and French and really by my senior year had no idea what I was going to do. And so, my roommate said, "Hey, I'm going to apply to a school psychology program. Do you want to do that?" And, before even having any idea what the job entailed, I just kind of jumped in and said, "Yeah, I need something to do." And, gosh, what a good choice that was with not a lot of information because I luckily love the job. So, landed in the job and loved it. And, as you probably know, when you're in this field, a population that comes up a lot is children with autism. And so, I developed a love for that group of people and kids. And then, found myself really needing some specialized training to serve them better. And so, luckily, I live in Sacramento and we're close to something called the UC Davis MIND Institute.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah.

Danielle:           And, this is a place that you may have heard of specializes in neurodevelopmental disabilities. And so, I did a fellowship there. I learned so much about all kinds of neurodevelopmental disabilities, but especially autism. And then, six years ago, I had my son and had no idea that I was going to have such a personal connection. And, I will say that, honestly, all of the professional training and being in schools was great, but nothing is better than the 24/7, 365 days a year I get training with him.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah. I mean, we were kind of joking over email, but I left it up to you whether you're going to share that about yourself personally. But, we were just talking about the street cred that that brings.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         That you really live that life. You live it and you embody it and you embrace it. So, you have such a unique perspective, not only as a professional who specializes in this but also as a mom.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         And, which is that very deep robust connection that gives you a real practical, I think, mind to this.

Danielle:           Yes, yes. I remember writing behavior plans for kids and talking about them with parents. And, I mean, just thinking, "Well, if you do this, then you have to-- the next step is you'll get this." It's just A plus B equals C. It is just so humbling as a parent to realize that all the science and the research are great, and they're helpful. But, it doesn't always apply in day-to-day life so neatly. Sometimes a little more complicated.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah, yeah. It's not so linear, right?

Danielle:           Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         It's so funny. "Humility" was the word that really resonated with me, having a humility to it. And looking back at the years that I was also writing behavior plans and making recommendations and thinking, "That was arrogant."

Danielle:           I know. I know. I know.

Dr. Gwen:         Ahh! Anyway, here we are, hopefully, more evolved now.

Danielle:           Yeah, yeah, I hope. Still learning, still learning.

Dr. Gwen:         Still learning and still open to learning, and still open to making mistakes, and staying committed to the process.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         So, Danielle, maybe something that we could do really quickly is talk about what educational psychologists do because there's so many different types of psychologist.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         I'm a clinical psychologists, it's different than an educational psychologist. So, could you help us understand what an ed psych does?

Danielle:           Yes, yeah. So, California allows school psychologists to get--they take a test, and they are regulated by the Board of Behavioral Sciences. And so, once you pass this exam, then you can be a licensed educational psychologist. And, you can do lots of different things, counseling both individual and group counseling for kids. Obviously, a big portion is your assessments. So, either doing private psychoeducational assessments where you're looking at how a child learns and what the impact is with their cognitive or processing abilities. And then, sometimes parents disagree with school district assessments. And so, they can request an individualized Independent Educational Evaluation, IEE. And so, you come in and you try to be neutral, as you know, and just really get a good whole picture of the child. But, LEPs can also do advocacy. That's near and dear to my heart. Obviously, helping parents navigate all the systems of support. And then, some of them do a lot of contract work with districts that are short psychologists. And, honestly, I think the thing that maybe is different about an educational psychologist is definitely less clinical, obviously. So, really, our experiences typically are in schools. We understand the whole system of schools and how you navigate IEPs, all the acronyms.

Dr. Gwen:         Yes.

Danielle:           SST, DSS, it's a whole another language. But, that's about it.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah. And, this real focus on the educational system, this idea of really fully--going to school and becoming licensed as a clinical psych, I didn't really fully understand the educational system and the role that psychologists can play in that system, specifically how maybe the impact of psychology is on learning or accessing a curriculum, and this. So, something that I find to be so helpful is when I'm talking or collaborating with my ed psych colleagues, they really give me a really good perspective of that culture and the way that system works, and what's reasonable in that system. And so, that is important because we're talking about education.

Danielle:           Yeah, I think so. I definitely think that it's one of those things where helping teachers and parents understand if an intervention is effective, what does evidence-based mean. I think that that's a term that gets thrown around a lot. And, typically an educational psych has just a little bit more of their hands in curriculum and understanding that side of education, but then also just how do you access mental health support in schools? I think so few people realize that that is often the first place kids show signs and so rarely do they get the help they need unless. First of all, schools are funded and have the number and ratio of psychologists that they should have. But, also just helping parents know like, "Yeah, there is supposed to be a school psychologist, a counselor at every school, and kids can access mental health support at school. It's just, how do you get there.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah, and that exists.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         Right? That even exists and that so much of learning is psychologically driven.

Danielle:           Yes, yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         So, how important that is? No, that's awesome. You have such an amazing specialty. And, this is something that I feel the word "inclusion" really gets tossed and thrown about and sometimes very loosely, sometimes very specifically. But, the bottom line is, what exactly is "inclusion?" When we talk about inclusion, what exactly is that? And, how do we actually see it practically implemented in an ed setting, for example? So, maybe we can even start there. What is inclusion?

Danielle:           Yeah. This is my favorite topic. So, I'm so excited always to talk about it. And, I think inclusion definitely does get misunderstood a lot. But, for me, one of the biggest things, the simplest like distilled down idea of inclusion is just when you presume competence in all children regardless of disability, race, socioeconomic status, and then you also offer them equal access, an equitable access to the education system. I think a lot of times education is very siloed. So, everybody has their separate-- I do special education, I do general education, these are my kids, and those are your kids. And, inclusion is really about equipping every teacher to teach every kid. And so, that, to me, is really important that every child have that option from the beginning. A lot of times it's real categorical. So, if you have this disability, honestly, with my son at age three, it was, "Okay, he has autism and fragile X, we are going to put him in this self-contained program with all kids that are similar eligibilities." And, that is really, I think, just not setting the same expectations and goals for all kids. And so, for me, I can talk about it in circles all day, but I think if you just presume competence for every child, and let them show you what they're capable of when you give the teacher the right supports, the support staff that is needed, that's a big, big part of it.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Go ahead, Danielle.

Danielle:           I think to bring this to light, personally, I think a lot of people think that even doctors and specialists in the medical system, they think they know a child based on, "Well, what do most kids with that diagnosis do and what is their potential." And, I'll never forget when my son was nine months old, he was in all the therapies we found out early, and so that was my life then. I've taken him to physical therapy, speech therapy, feeding therapy. And, it was a fairly fresh and new diagnosis for me personally. And, I asked his therapist-- his physical therapist. We were doing work on trying to get him to crawl and walk. And, just a mom in me said, "Do you think he'll ever be able to ride a bike?" And, she looked at me and she said, "He's not going to be an Olympic athlete, if that's what you're asking." And, I just was devastated. I mean, I just kind of smiled and got through that session. But, that was a really kind of pivotal moment for me. My husband and I decided at that point that we really wanted to be surrounded by people that believed in our son. And honestly, in retrospect, that was probably a dumb question for me to ask. But, it's just a mom in you that you just, for whatever reason, that's what I was worried about.

Dr. Gwen:         Yup.

Danielle:           And so, we went on, and we went to a couple more sessions, and then she told me, she didn't think he'd have the cognitive potential to ever learn how to climb stairs. And, it just came so clear that she just didn't presume competence in him. She saw his diagnosis and not the unique child that's there. And, that's the thing that's so important to me is you need to look at each child as unique. Their diagnosis is helpful but it's not everything and it shouldn't limit them. And so, I have to say, I wish I had kept her email, sent her video because he's riding a bike and he's climbing stairs fine.

Dr. Gwen:         Right.

Danielle:           Right. I do think now like, "What if we believed her?" I mean, "What if we really just," at that point, "stopped?" We stopped trying. We stopped expecting him to reach some of these goals and potential. I think he'd have limited opportunity. And, I think that we do that a lot for kids. That's why I feel so fortunate and blessed that we're able to-- I understand the educational system, we're able to get my son what he needs, and to get him surrounded by a team of people that also believe in him. But, I really feel passionate about doing that for every kid that I meet with disabilities. Because I think, when you get the right team around them and you have people that believed in them, they reach so much more potential than people think it's possible.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah. And, it's so hard, don't you think, Danielle, to say what the potential of someone is?

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         I mean, especially as a three-year-old to say, "He's three--"

Danielle:           Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         And, in that moment, there was something emotional happening for you.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         You needed reassurance in some way, shape, or form in that moment, because you were worried about something.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         And, that's not unlike the experience of any parent for that matter. And hopefully, we are surrounded by people who also share hope in our children. Not saying that we want to just have rose-colored glasses and be disillusioned, but that we do want to give people a chance with the right opportunity to see. Give them a moment.

Danielle:           Right, right.

Dr. Gwen:         I don't know. Maybe give them a few extra times there. Let's see what can happen.

Danielle:           Exactly. You do walk this fine line of not-- of course, as a mom, I'm going to believe in more than anyone. And, I did think, "Okay, well, maybe I am just too optimistic." And, maybe I am wearing those rose-colored glasses. But, I kept plugging along and then doing the work that I did. At the charter school building, this inclusion program, we would see kids that came into us and had all kinds of different disabilities: Down syndrome, intellectual disabilities, severe autism, ADHD. And, when we got the right team in place, they also seceded. Now, did they meet every grade level goal and expectation? No, but they all made much more progress. And so, I started to think, "Okay, it's not just my mom bias, there is something to inclusion." And so, then, when I worked at the MIND Institute, I met a wonderful human being and also became a great friend, but Dr. Oliver, at the MIND Institute, does some research on inclusion. And so, I finally felt like, "Oh my gosh, this is validating what I've been thinking as a mom and as school psychologist," but I'm not a researcher. And so, she shared with me research that actually shows compared to kids in contained classroom, they've taken some data and they see that kids not only do better-- the kids with disabilities, they have increased language, even their IQ goes up, their behaviors improve because they have typically developing role models, so they're seeing kids that are socializing in the way that is teaching them. But, the kids without disabilities have positive outcomes too. They have more comfort around other kids with disabilities. Their test scores are not negatively affected. I think we all know that the greatest way to learn something is when you teach someone else. So, when you have mixed group kids, it really does help. So, I think that was just so validating for me to see like, "Yeah, this is actually playing out and researching in the real world. It's not just my personal experience." And, that just made me really passionate and sure that, "Yup, this is the direction I want to go with my career." I want to build a career on how to do inclusion well and how to get the right supports in place for kids.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah, yeah. And, when you do inclusion well, it sounds like there's thoughtfulness, attention, and planning, and some kind of measurement. I mean, in some way, shape, or form, right? But, it's this idea of maybe even before we write someone off, have we exhausted--

Danielle:           Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         --what we know to be potentially helpful for this person? Whatever that is, right? And so, to have someone with lenses like that, to say, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, there's so much we haven't tried yet."

Danielle:           Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         "Let's try some more stuff. Let's throw it at the wall." And, sometimes I think we can be really bad at predicting what's going to work.

Danielle:           Yeah, that's right.

Dr. Gwen:         I tend to be pleasantly surprised. So now, I'm just like, "Let's have an open mind, let's experiment, let's be curious, let's throw it at the wall, maybe throw it at the wall again, and maybe again." And oh, you know?

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         "Look what we have." But, yeah. And so, Danielle, you come in and support these systems now because you're not with the district any longer because you're private. So, how do you support teams now? How does that look?

Danielle:           Yeah. So, I think what you said is so true about-- you have to try a lot of options sometimes. And so, often what I'll hear because I feel like now, in this role, I'm pulled in when inclusion isn't going well, per se. And so, oftentimes with good intentions, I really don't think anyone goes into supporting a child into special ed or general ed without good intentions.

Dr. Gwen:         Agreed.

Danielle:           I think districts and people want to do the right thing for kids. But often, the easiest thing to do is stick a one-on-one aide with a child and then put them in the classroom, and just kind of hope for the best. And so, what we know is that there are a lot of amazing, wonderful, well-trained aides that do great work. But, oftentimes, they are not people with a teacher credential or specialized training. And more importantly, they aren't given the time that they need to collaborate with the other educators. So, I'm not saying that an aide never works, but I think that what I see happen often is they're just stuck in there without training and without the teacher that's leading that classroom, feeling an accountability or responsibility for that child. It's just human nature when you see a child that has this other adult attached to them to think like, they've got that, like, I'm going to keep teaching these kids. And, I think really, inclusion works well when there's this really integrated team. So, if you're going to have an aide, they're collaborating with that general ed teacher and special ed teacher at least once a week where they're writing lesson plans that are universally designed. So, I can talk briefly about that. There is so much research on universal design for learning. But, it's really about if you design your lesson from the beginning with every kind of learner in mind, it really takes away the need to kind of retrofit. So, universal design came from architecture and buildings where we had to go and retrofit buildings to be wheelchair accessible. And so, they applied that to education. And really, they're talking about, "Okay, how are we going to engage the child?" There's actually more than one way. It doesn't have to all be that we do a worksheet to learn these math facts. We can engage them by doing a store and setting up like a real-life map scenario. But then beyond engagement, how do we give the child different ways to show what they've learned? So, instead of just a multiple-choice test to show if you know those math skills, can that child do a video performance and demonstrate a math fact? Or, can they make a slideshow? When you get creative about that design of the lesson and then the design of the way you test the child, it allows access for kids with differences in ability, in language, in physical, if they have physical disabilities. So, I think that is a really critical piece for inclusion to go well is when everybody's got training on UDL. And, it's not just on the age shoulders who typically has the least education but I don't want to underestimate the power of a good aide.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah.

Danielle:           And then, research shows too that when you have a principal, a leader of a school who believes in inclusion, the child does better, even though they're far removed is kind of crazy. It's just that kind of culture that you create in a school. And then, it's the time that you dedicate to training, to giving your teachers the time they need to train, giving them the support they need, and the resources. Maybe they need access to different curriculums. Another one of my real favorite curricula that's unique to autism is called Classroom Pivotal Response Training, CPRT. And, you can google that. I have to always mention Dr. Aubyn Stahmer at the MIND Institute. She created this with special education teacher. She's amazing. And has a lot of research behind it that when you train general ed teachers, not even special ed, the students with autism in their class have a lot better outcomes. And, this is a naturalistic kind of. It was adapted from PRT, which is just Pivotal Response Training. And, parents do that often with their children when they're young. But, it's just kind of, I think, getting the right tools and resources in place. And then, I'm always encouraging teams to collaborate more and not work in silos that there's a lot of intersectionality in special education and in a child who has a disability might also-- they're a general ed student first, our child English learners, are a general ed student first. Every child is a general ed first. And, I think we forget that often. And, in the last research, I'll share a resource. Dan Habib, he's a filmmaker and he has done some great documentaries. So, I always tell people to watch, including Samuel and "Intelligent Lives". Those are two of my real favorites. I think you're familiar with him.

Dr. Gwen:         Yup, yup. It's so great. And, I love this concept. I love this concept, Danielle. This, "Every child is a gen ed student first."

Danielle:           Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         I actually think that's forgotten.

Danielle:           Yes.

Dr. Gwen:         So, we automatically kind of go into these silos, right? "No, no, no, this student belongs in your class, these students belong in my class." And then, when you visit me in my class, that student has a one-on-one aide, and then they sit in the back and the aide--

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         It always feels a little disjointed whenever I go and observe something like that versus kind of a more integrated kind of idea of including the student from the lesson plan. I mean, you're thinking about every learner from the minute you set a lesson plan.

Danielle:           Yeah, exactly. And, as you know what the work you do when children leave education system, the world is not like that. I mean, they don't go out into the community and there's this section for adults with disabilities. And then, I want them fully integrated however that looks with whatever support they might need because that's the world that we're sending them off into.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah. And it is that, in other interviews, we talk about this cliff.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         Because I'm so focused on that transition from high school to adult living that I see that as a cliff. And, sometimes in these silos where we have really comprehensive supports actually, those are the students that can struggle quite a bit because they've been so wrapped around without this idea of, "I need to transfer some agency to you now." Before you leave, we got to really think about that around 15, 16. We really got to think about empowering you and transferring what we've been doing to you now. So, I see that as a struggle sometimes. But, as you come in, you've got such a great perspective here with inclusion because you have the public school background. You've got a mom background. You now have specialized training for the MIND Institute, which is such like, what a wonderful resource by you. You're here trying to hub teams. I'm sure you're providing resources. You just did, you just provided us three lovely resources.

Danielle:           Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         Connecting people to those.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         When someone comes into you in an IEE situation, meaning they're needing a separate independent evaluation from you. Talk to us about how you approach that kind of assessment and then how you might have inclusion in your mind with that kind of assessment.

Danielle:           Yeah, definitely. I think the number one thing that I start with is what questions do you want answered? So, I'm sure you've seen a million psych reports. And, there's typically a style in these reports that we're trained to write. And, what I realized over the 15 years that I wrote them, and then especially when I got my son's report, was often it doesn't have all the information that the parent really wants in a really easy-to-digest way. So, for me, what's really important is that I make sure I have a clear idea of what the parent wants to know about their child. And so, that's where we started, "What questions do you want answered with this assessment? What are you confused about? Or, what do you want to know that maybe hasn't been looked at? Or, what are you in disagreement with?" That sometimes happens. And, like I said, I really do try to stay neutral. My job is to try to get the best picture of that child and the most complete picture. So, I feel, again, just so in agreement with the "Intelligent Lives" documentary that these tests we used are limited. The traditional intelligence test can tell us a little bit about a child. It does not tell us everything. And, there are so many limitations. Still with just equity in these tests, and the fact that people use them to make some pretty bad decisions in education. And, as you know, there's disproportionality. So, we've got students that's Black and students of color are being placed not only in segregated settings more often but then they're being disciplined more often than their peers. And, a lot of that is just making sure that we're using the tests that we have really thoughtfully. I think that there is a purpose for the test.

And, I believe that a good psychoeducational assessment includes a lot of standardized testing, but just as much of qualitative information and data. Interviews, observations, rating scales. There's lots of ways to look at a child. And, I think the number one thing I say to every assessment I do is strength-based. We got to build from a place of strength rather than deficit. I feel like the whole IEP system is such a deficit-based system. And, again, I think people have great intentions. I am so thrilled that the federal government has a system for kids with disabilities and allows them in school now. But, just the way it's designed is you're focusing on what kids aren't good at. And, who wants to sit in a meeting for an hour and hear about all the things that they're bad at? I feel like if we start with, "Okay, what are you good at?" And then, how can we help you compensate for the things that you do need help with? I'm not saying, do we ignore the deficits, but if you build from a place of strength, I really think that's the way to do it.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah. And, I think what is so helpful here, Danielle, is mindsets. This is kind of what you're talking about, right?

Danielle:           Yup.

Dr. Gwen:         Which is providing frameworks that include mindsets for things, whether that's like, every child is a gen ed student first as an inclusive mindset, or that I'm going to do an assessment that strength-based. It doesn't mean we ignore what's hard for someone because we do need to nod do that, but that we say, "What are you good at?" Now, how do we use that then to compensate or build systems to support you with what's hard for you or what you have to work really hard at? How can we ease some of that load for you? I see very, very clearly this idea of easing pain points or pressure points. And, as a psychologist, parents often come to me or clients, adult clients come to me with a specific thing. There is a specific thing. Sometimes it might not be well-articulated because there's just a general sense of worry or unease, but to be able to be engaged in a formal process that allows a parent to articulate and organize or maybe organize their thinking in order to articulate. Much like my adult clients when I'm helping them advocate in their life, sometimes they know that there's something off, but they don't know what to call it.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         They don't have the words for it and they don't know when to even advocate for it. So, in regards to easing pain points or easing pressure points, you come in here to say, "Okay, something's not working."

Danielle:           Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         Right. Educationally, "Something's not working here."

Danielle:           And, you're right. I do hope that I can help parents articulate what they want to know about their child and what they want to see for their child. I do think sometimes it's hard. This system is also so confusing and complex. And, there's so many systems. So, my hope would be that I not only see the possibility in every child as opposed to the deficits but that I help them navigate all of these systems. And, I always tell parents, this is another language you have to learn when you're in the world of special ed. There's so many acronyms. And, it feels like there-- a lot of parents say, they feel like there is a question they need to be asked or a service they need to ask for, but they don't know what it is, and it feels very opaque and hard to kind of see-through. So, helping them navigate that, I think, is really important. Even with my level of experience in the schools, with my own son, it sometimes feels like a mountain you're climbing where you have to call the insurance company, and then you have to go through ALTA and getting-- it's just so much bureaucracy that I hope I can ease that pain of how to navigate the systems with a little more ease. And then, also, it's really important to me to tie every intervention back to evidence-based practice. So, as you know, we're in a time of you could kind of find what you want on Google to say there's research supporting something. And, that was really eye-opening for me at the MIND Institute just realizing there is so much research out there and we know what works. But, it is hard to climb through that mess of what is truth and what isn't. And so, really helping parents find some reputable sites. And, teachers too, I mean, they just are so burdened that they don't have time to research evidence-based practice for their students. There are one or two students on the spectrum. So, my hope is to kind of get some quick and easy resources that we know works. You have such limited time and special education. I feel like the number of minutes a kid gets each week or month that I think we should do what we know works and really try to be efficient with that intervention.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah. And, that's what it sounds like. You're closing that gap because when there is a lot of information, information becomes devalued, right?

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         If there's so much of it and you don't have the time to sort through it, then you don't.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         So, here you are also kind of closing the gap for parents to say, "Hey, we really tried to capture comprehensively who your kiddo is. Now, based on that, and based on the systems that we know about and are at play, here's how we can kind of close some of those gaps with things that we know to work, right, things that we know have been shown to work. And so, we want to give those things a try." Kind of back to kind of full circle to first started talking, which is, how can we exhaust the things-- "How can we exhaust things before we give up on them?"

Danielle:           That's exactly it. Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         Which is so great. So, Danielle, what do you hope-- And, I know this is a very loose question, but what do you hope happens for your client as an outcome? And, I know that you wear different hats. You assess, you consult, and you're also a therapist. I mean, you also provide counseling to students and clients. So, you can answer this in whatever way you want then. But, anyone that comes into contact with you professionally, what do you hope happens for that client or that family?

Danielle:           I think that, yeah, regardless of which hat I'm wearing, I think that the number one thing would be what I started with where you presume competence for this child. I do quite a bit of counseling and CBT work for children with anxiety and/or autism. And, sometimes it's gotten pretty bad to the point where they can't, they can't leave the house, or they can't ever go near outside because the kid has such a fear of bees. And, I really think regardless if I'm testing or doing counseling or consulting, I want people to believe that we can make progress, that their child can learn. We can assume that they are competent and they'll get there. They just don't have the supports they need right now. And so, that's it. Presume competence and find the supports they need or teach them the skills, the toolbox, what tools do we need to add to that toolbox.

Dr. Gwen:         Yup, yup. And, you talked about CBT and CBT is such an interesting cognitive behavioral therapy for-- so, we'll just make sure--

Danielle:           Yeah, yeah, sorry. Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         No, it's okay. But, it's a very specific methodology when it comes to therapy. I don't want to derail us too much, but maybe what you can do is just kind of talk about just theoretically the idea of CBT or how it works.

Danielle:           Yeah, I think that one of the things that is encouraging, I would say, is anxiety in kids is like the number one social-emotional concern. I saw that in the schools. It plays out in the research. Anxiety is really common in children. And, people can feel really overwhelmed, like I said, and it can really affect family systems. But, the great news is that cognitive-behavioral therapy has really good evidence behind it. So, although anxiety is the most common, it's also one of the most easy to treat issues when the kid gets what they need. And so, cognitive behavioral therapy is really first kind of teaching them to identify the signs and the clues that their body gives. So, those somatic complaints, I have butterflies in my stomach, my heart's beating real fast. And then, teaching them about their thoughts. That their thoughts actually are leading to this anxiety not necessarily the situation, it's not really the bees. It's, "What do you think is going to happen if you get stung by a bee?" And so, teaching kids how to kind of check the evidence. "We all get caught in thinking traps," I tell kids, it happens to adults too.

Dr. Gwen:         Yes.

Danielle:           And, how do we challenge that and then replace it with obviously a more realistic or coping thought? And then, the last piece of CBT that's really critical, and as you know, is exposures. It's going right to whatever makes them anxious and systematically practicing up to the point where they can get there. So, being around a bee, if-- and that's what I tell parents is like, "Whatever their anxieties are, we're going to go directly towards it." It'll be a systematic process and we will slowly teach them all of the cognitive skills. But then behaviorally, we are going to do exposures. And, I'm going to give them the tools so they can face them. And, just like with anything, I assume that all kids can get there with the right supports. And, some kids just need a lot more repetition than others. But, I found such great success with it.

Dr. Gwen:         Yes. And, the exposure piece is, I think, what a lot of therapists missed in CBT.

Danielle:           Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         We spend a lot of time on how the body feels and what the thinking is and our thinking traps and how we can be irrational and all of that stuff.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         But then, there's not any guidance with an actual exposure that's graded, systematic. And that, in the meantime, we've also been teaching coping skills so that we can use those in exposure.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         Right.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         And so, it's a lovely therapeutic model.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         I don't think it's great for all kids. But, for many, that can look at their or think about their thoughts or reflect on their thoughts.

Danielle:           Yup.

Dr. Gwen:         Can maybe pair their body signals to thinking, to pull up strategies. Man, it's an incredible model.

Danielle:           Yes. And, I'm glad you said that it might not be the best fit for all kids. I have definitely noticed that there are some adaptations that need to happen depending on your language ability, and then just the autism piece. But, the MIND Institute also has good studies on this on how to adapt. And, a lot of it is you're going to focus more on the bee.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah.

Danielle:           You're not going to be able to do as much as the cognitive piece depending on language. And then, really, for me, what I found and you know this too, is getting into that child's interest. Whatever their enthusiasm is, that character becomes who we do the exposure with. We kind of externalize it. And so, I just would encourage parents that if they do have a child who has multiple diagnoses, there are ways to access. I have heard people say that certain kids can't benefit from talk therapy or counseling. And, I do think that's a little bit, again, of not presuming competence. And, if you find the right therapist that can make some adaptations and really take that time to build rapport-- I've learned so much about Pokémon and video games and things, just I had to do it, because that was the only way I was going to get in.

Dr. Gwen:         Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, so much of my "Star Wars" education has come to my clients.

Danielle:           From your clients.

Dr. Gwen:         I mean, I'm a lover of "Star Wars" anyway. But, whoa, I'm like, "I didn't know there were three codes of Jedis." And, I was like, I, you know-- but it's been fascinating. And, maybe here, Danielle, the key here is a therapist who not only presumes competence but is creative.

Danielle:           Yes.

Dr. Gwen:         Right. It's the ability to be like, "Okay, well, yeah." I mean, it's not going to work that way.

Danielle:           Yup, yup.

Dr. Gwen:         But, man, it could work this way and really working with the parent on expectations of the fact that it might take a little longer.

Danielle:           Totally, yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         I mean with a lot of my clients, it does. We need more repetitions. We need more exposure. We need more frequent--less time, just more frequently. I mean, there's a lot of different ways to play that. But, I love that. It's really meeting the client where they are.

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         So, I derailed this with CBT just because that was fine.

Danielle:           It's okay. Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         But, going back to inclusion and talking about individualization, do you ever feel like there's a time where inclusion may not be appropriate for a student? How might you make some of those determinations? Or, do you even see that?

Danielle:           The thing about an IEP is it is individualized. And, I have met teams. And, I actually have some close friends that just for their child, that's not the picture they have. And so, for me, I completely respect that. And, my opinion and philosophy is that every child should have the option. And, if the team and the parents, most importantly feel like inclusion just isn't the vision they have for their child, I completely respect that. I think the problem is I see so many kids don't even get that option at a really young age. We start placing them in separate settings, really young. And, like I said, I have an issue with the equity and access as well. Because a lot of times, it's our families that are either have disproportionate identification and then also placements that don't have the advocacy or supports to know that they could ask for an inclusive placement. Because oftentimes, what happens is a kid is young, three years old, and they say, "Yup, this categorical program," every kid goes to this school, but it's not in your neighborhood. So, we'll bus you for free. And maybe that, you know, kid wants to be part of their neighborhood community and walk to school with their brother or sister. And so, to me, I just think they should have that option. And then, we should do it well. And, if that doesn't work, I completely support people. It needs to be individualized. Every child is unique and different.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah, yeah. And, you go back to family systems, right? What is going to work best for that family? How does that work in that family system? That is so critical to think about as we're thinking about truly individualizing because that's their world. Their family is where they go home to and the one that gives them their primary support. So, that is so, so important. So, Danielle, how do people typically access your service? I know that we just spoke about three different ways, three kinds of different main hats that you wear. So, maybe we can break down how people might access your service based on those services themselves.

Danielle:           Yes, yeah. So, for counseling, I'm a small private practice, so I do private pay and superbills. A lot of my clients are able to get reimbursed through their insurance with a superbill, which is great. And then, the IEEs when you get an independent evaluation are actually funded by the district. So, a parent has to make a request and give the school an opportunity to do an assessment. And, if for whatever reason they disagree, they need to put in writing to the district and then get permission. And so, that's how that works. And then, the advocacy and consulting, people find me. It's a lot of networking and friends of friends. But, I also am really fortunate I get to work on-- I just volunteer work at the MIND Institute and do this program called Family Navigator. And so, we are parents helping parents. We coach them after their diagnosis. So, parents, they get a new autism diagnosis, are offered to participate in this program where we have a whole library of resources that the MIND Institute developed: YouTube videos, infographics, PowerPoints, all about just the world of autism, and all the different facets. So, I love doing that because it reminds me of those early days with my son. And, I was at the point where I didn't really want to go to a support group. I wasn't ready for something like that yet, but it was my friends talking one-on-one to people who had been through that was really helpful. So, I love this design.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah. That's great. And, maybe what we can do is-- I'll talk to you and we can put the info for the links in the description below for people to reach out to that program.

Danielle:           Yeah, definitely.

Dr. Gwen:         That could be helpful. So, I always ask other psychologists this question because I always feel like we always learn something new, especially as we go into private practice. But, what's something you've learned being an ed psych that you might not have learned otherwise in this journey?

Danielle:           Yeah. I think people told me when I was starting my private practice like "Did you take any business classes in college?" And, I was like, "No." So, that has been a very steep learning curve for me, just the business side of things, and QuickBooks, and all of that jazz. So, that's been very steep learning curve. A lot of the other work, I feel like I can-- I'm sorry, my son turned on the TV.

Dr. Gwen:         That's okay.

Danielle:           I feel like I am doing what I was doing in the schools, but I have more time to do it, which is such a treat. Doing the counseling and having a full hour with the kid in the schools, man, it is so hard to have that kind of time. There's just so much coming in that I would be lucky, lucky to get 30 minutes. It was usually 15-minute check-ins. So, that has been a very nice side of the educational psychologists.

Dr. Gwen:         That's awesome. Okay. Alright, so then I also always end my interviews with this question. I think I might know, but I'll let you elaborate. Which is, if you could only choose one skill to empower a child or an individual with, what would it be and why?

Danielle:           You know what I'm going to say. Presume competence. Yeah, I just keep coming back to my son and so many kids I've seen where I just never would have thought that it was so powerful to do that for a child that really-- but, I mean, I'm not surprised as a psychologist. You're right, so much of life and our outcomes are about our mindset. And so, I just think that in the disability world, a lot of people make these assumptions and they make predictions. And, doctors, I think, are frequently asked to make predictions.

Dr. Gwen:         Yes.

Danielle:           But, I just finished reading a book called "Disability Visibility". And, it's a collection of essays. I think Alice Wong put it together. But, it's all different people with disabilities and their experiences. And, to me, what I read over and over is what gifts they bring to the world. And, that if we presume competence and we let these people with disabilities lead companies, and schools, and systems, we gain so much. And, I just think representation matters so much. And, they can't be represented if we don't presume that they can do things just like the rest of us, just with different support. So, that's definitely my one thing I would love to empower every person with.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah. Every person with, right? Because I think about just the feeling, the feeling that you have when you're with someone who presumes your competence.

Danielle:           Yeah, yeah. You rise, yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         Yeah. It's pretty profound versus "I really don't believe that you can do anything. So, good luck." I don't mean to be that flippant. But, it has this feeling of-- and man, I mean, even parents of-- even parents, period.

Danielle:           Yup.

Dr. Gwen:         Right. If you can presume competence in your child, adolescent, teen, adult child, right, imagine what happens even in like falling down and getting back up, and not having to protect kids all the time and letting them have some experiences. In so many of these interviews, we talk a lot about the dignity of risk and how important that is even for adolescents and adults because we're so worried, we're anxious about our kids being hurt and making mistakes, and we're worried about that. And, we all understand that as parents because of what we want for our children. But, we do also need to allow that. We presume competence and we're like, "You're fine. You're good. That mishap, that mistake, that bump, that bruise, that's okay."

Danielle:           Yeah.

Dr. Gwen:         "You're good. You're going to be fine." And so, it's really awesome that that is your number one thing. It's so lovely. Well, Danielle, how do people get ahold of you? Like I said, I will put your information in the description, but maybe you can let people know what's like the best way to get ahold of you?

Danielle:           Yeah. I am--I will say, moderately active on Twitter and Instagram. But, every summer, I take a break, screen breaks. So, I'm taking my little summer break, but I usually find a lot of valuable education resources on Twitter. And so, I follow a bunch of "inclusionists" that we call ourselves and learn a lot from that. And so, my Twitter handle I think is @inclusivepsych. And then, Instagram--yeah. Yup, that's Twitter. Instagram is @inclusivelyminded. And, Instagram is becoming another place where I'm learning lots of resources and following lots of like-minded people.

Dr. Gwen:         Great, great. And your website, right, inclusivelyminded.com.

Danielle:           That's right.

Dr. Gwen:         We can also get ahold of you as well. So, I'll direct people over there. Thank you so much for spending some time with me and talking about inclusion. I love it.

Danielle:           Thank you for the opportunity and the time. I am so excited about it.

Dr. Gwen:         Thanks, Danielle. Hey, thanks for watching. If you're interested in finding out more about Danielle, her information is in the description below. I've also provided a link to my website where I provide additional insights and impressions of this interview. If you got any value from this interview, please hit that Like button and subscribe to this channel. Doing so helps to get this information to others just like you. If there's a topic or a program that you want to know more about, please leave it in the comments below. Thanks for watching. See you in the next video.